Right! What does affect one's free will is what the future is like. For example, if one assumes that only A is possible, and not B, then any definition of free will, to be logically consistent, should reflect this fact.

The issue is not God's foreknowledge. It's what we think the future is like. Is it comprised of things which must happen (like A, not B), or is it open? (either A or B can happen). However the future is really like, whatever its reality is, God's knowledge of it will reflect.

Again, to summarize, God's foreknowledge of the future does not affect our free will. What does affect our free will is what the future is like. If it is comprised of will-happen events, like A (not B), then our free will is also comprised of will-happen events (A, not B).

That's not hard to understand, is it? (Maybe it is. Doesn't seem so to me).

Daryl, its worse than that. In one view presented here, this discussion has been forseen to run as it has from before history began and we really have no choise but to discuss it until all that is foreknown is fullfilled. Whenever that is...

Yes, God's foreknowledge doesn't affect our control of the discussion, or our choice/s in what we will post here. The difference lies in the fact that we do not know what God knows, therefore, our freedom of choice remains, even to the point of what we will post here, irrespective of the fact that God has already seen what we will post here.

I guess this is what is called the mystery of God.

Of course God's foreknowledge doesn't affect our control of the discussion, or our choices. How could it? Knowledge isn't force. Everyone knows that.

It's not a question of cause and effect, but of logical consistency. If we believe in a universe where the future can only be A, then A will happen, for sure. This being the case, it's logical nonsense to speak of being able to do anything other than A. Not because there's any cause and effect. Nothing is *forcing* us to choose A. It's just that we live in a universe where only A can happen.

It's a logical "forcing," not a physical one.

If we throw away logic, then we can do B.

But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.


That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;

How do you mean?

If the fact that the raft must go left remains true even after introducing the possibility of the person influencing the raft, then how can the person be influencing the raft at all?!

It sounds like in this case, the person has absolutely no influence on the raft whatsoever.

I don't know what this is all about, I haven't followed any of the threads for quite some time, but in this hypothetical situation, absolutely nothing has changed between adding the person to the raft, and allegedly adding the person's ability to influence the raft. For it seems that the person actually has no influence at all, if the raft must go left, for some undisclosed and unknown reason.

Why do you think that what the future is like affects our free will?

What you are really saying is that since there is only one possible future, we truly have no freedom of choice because it can happen only one way. Therefore we must do what the future holds and have absolutely no choice in the matter whatsoever. This would mean that I am not responsible for my sin, since it was in my future, and I no matter what I would chose of my own volition, I must do 'A' because that was in the future.

Another way of saying it is: God's foreknowledge fatalistically determines what I will do in the future. IOW, God knew in advance I was going to do a certain thing, therefore it was determined ahead of time by God that I would do that very thing, not because I chose to do it.

Take this for an example: You know that I love macaroni and cheese, and that I hate okra. We go somewhere to eat, and all they have to offer us is mac-and-cheese and okra. You know what I will choose because you know my likes and dislikes. Therefore you know what will happen in the very near future.

Now, because you know what my future choice will be, does that fact somehow limit my freedom of choice? I don't think so. It is still up to me to choose and my ability to choose is in no wise limited, contrary to your statement above.

It would seem to me that the cause-effect relationship between our free will and the future runs the other way:



God not only knows what the future will be like, with exact accuracy, He also knows what choices we will make. Does that therefore mean that "The choices we will make in the future affects (i.e. limits) what our choices are now?".

I don't think so.

No, you missed the point. It's not that God's knowledge of the future determines what you will do, but if the future is such that it is comprised of only actions are determined (i.e. fixed; e.g. you will certainly eat macaroni and cheese), as opposed to possibilities (you might eat okra), then free will should be defined not as your being able to eat macaroni and cheese or okra (you can't eat the okra), but in some other way (e.g.; free will is your being able to do that which you please, in this case, eat the macaroni and cheese).

To give a little background about this thread, I started another thread called "The Contradiction" which started out with the following argument:

a)Assume only A can happen, and not B (the reason why is not important; A and B are mutually exclusive events).
b)Given this is the case, one cannot define "free will" as the ability to do either A or B, without contradicting a).

Now this seems so obvious that any future explanation would not be necessary. However, I had trouble getting people to agree with this self-evident statement. So I spun off this thread to see if people would agree that a) implies b).

Do you agree that a) implies b)? If so, we can proceed from there. (Please note that God's foreknowledge has not entered into the question yet).

Once I have chosen A, I then can't choose to do B in the same space and time, as I have already made my choice.

God, in His foreknowledge, sees what choice I will make, as if I had already chosen it.