Tom:(without purposely avoiding any opportunities to avoid light)

-, so... does that mean that opportunities to avoid light are to be used? Since if you do not avoid opportunities to avoid light, then you are in fact avoiding light at any opportunity to present itself? Maybe you want to rephrase that one...

This should be I would say that anyone who responds to all the light they have been given (without purposely avoiding any opportunities to obtain light) is living in harmony with what Jesus commanded.

TV: Mike, Im sure there are certain SDA churches which would just as easily be lumped with 1st century pharisee religion. On the same grounds as mentioned in the passage you quoted.

MM: You lost me. I'm not following your line of reasoning. You lumped certain SDA congregations with Wicca under the second angel's message. And now you're tossing in 1st Century Pharisees. What is the common denominator? In what way is dysfunctional SDA church families like fallen Babylon?

The common denominator, Mike, is not knowing the Saviour which is professed. If you do not know Jesus, being SDA wont be of any value whatsoever to you. As you may know, we do not subscribe to the purgatory concept. Either you know Jesus, or you do not. If you do, life awaits you, if you dont, no life in the beyond for you. I had to toss in 1st century phariseeism to make sure you didnt mistake my point as directed towards the liberal subgroup of SDA, and make sure you could see that in my view, some conservative SDA are just as likely to be in that mix.

I also keep wondering, you asked a whole bunch of questions but only commented on this particular reply...

TE: Jesus Christ is the truth who sets us free from our sinful habits. The Holy Spirit presents Christ to the prospective believer. When Christ is accepted, the power over sin is broken.

MM: So, are you saying when people accept Jesus as their personal Saviour they know how to obey everything Jesus commanded, that they are living in harmony with the fundamental beliefs of the Remnant Church?

TE: "The throne isn't divided; the person has invited Christ to sit upon it." I believe this clearly answers your question. Any sin which would prevent Christ from sitting on the throne is revealed. These are what Waggoner refers to as the "representative sins" of our lives.

MM: Then how do we differ on this aspect?

TE: Jesus Christ sets them free from their sinful habits. When the accept Him, they have the victory which overcomes the world.

MM: Again, how do we differ?

TE: “Again, the publican embarked upon the process of conversion, he did not complete it on the day he prayed at the temple. He was saved in the sense he was living up to the light he believed is right and true. So was David.” Saved but not converted?

MM: Correct.


TE: Sure. The Apostles taught what they learned of Christ. They presented Christ crucified, and through the Holy Spirit many souls were convicted and converted. But remember that these were largely Gentiles, who had no acquaintance with the "all things" you are talking about. These would have been explained to them after they were converted, and as I explained previously, these "all things" weren't even agreed to for some time.

MM: That’s not what Sister White said about it. She is very clear: “The conversions that took place on the Day of Pentecost were the result of this sowing, the harvest of Christ's work, revealing the power of His teaching.” Are you saying Jesus did not teach these particular people how to live in harmony with everything He commanded?

TE: This is what you were saying before. But as I pointed out before, Ellen White says that being born again is a condition to being saved. So your distinction here is faulty. You can't be saved without being born again. In other words, all who are saved have been born again.

MM: I disagree with your definition of rebirth.

TE: “Luther did not complete the process of converting to obeying everything Jesus commanded. Do you agree?” "Luther was converted." How does that not answer the question?

MM: Okay, so you are saying Luther was converted to obeying everything Jesus commanded. Do you really believe he was obeying everything Jesus commanded?

TE: I would say that anyone who responds to all the light they have been given (without purposely avoiding any opportunities to avoid [obtain] light) is living in harmony with what Jesus commanded. Being in harmony with God encompasses this. How could it not? How can one be in harmony with God, and not be in harmony with His law, which is a transcript of His character?

MM: “How can one be in harmony with God, and not be in harmony with His law, which is a transcript of His character?” Exactly. That’s what I’ve been asking along. You say you experienced conversion before you understood the law of God. You say Luther was converted before he observed the Sabbath. How can people complete the process of converting to obeying everything Jesus commanded before they know what He commanded? Why would they consent to accept Jesus as their Saviour if they don’t know what He expects of them?

TE: Jesus Christ is the truth who sets us free from our sinful habits. The Holy Spirit presents Christ to the prospective believer. When Christ is accepted, the power over sin is broken.

MM: So, are you saying when people accept Jesus as their personal Saviour they know how to obey everything Jesus commanded, that they are living in harmony with the fundamental beliefs of the Remnant Church?

No. Living in harmony with the fundamental beliefs of the Remnant Church is not the test of conversion. The pharisees were able to do this, but they weren't converted. Knowing Christ as one's personal Savior is the necessary and sufficient condition for conversion. This is what being "born again" entails.

TE: "The throne isn't divided; the person has invited Christ to sit upon it." I believe this clearly answers your question. Any sin which would prevent Christ from sitting on the throne is revealed. These are what Waggoner refers to as the "representative sins" of our lives.

MM: Then how do we differ on this aspect?

I think it is your belief that to be converted, all sin must be revealed. I think only the sins that prevent one from giving one's heart to Christ need to be revealed.

TE: Jesus Christ sets them free from their sinful habits. When the accept Him, they have the victory which overcomes the world.

MM: Again, how do we differ?

I believe that someone like Luther was converted. You, apparently, don't.

TE: “Again, the publican embarked upon the process of conversion, he did not complete it on the day he prayed at the temple. He was saved in the sense he was living up to the light he believed is right and true. So was David.” Saved but not converted?

MM: Correct.

The problem with this idea is that to be saved, one must be born again, or converted, as per the previous SOP quote I cited.

Quote:
TE: The people at Pentecost weren't aware of everything Jesus taught. How could they have been? There were many Gentiles there. Acts demonstrates that the "many things" had yet to be determined. The were converted as a result of believing Peter's preaching, which is recorded in Acts. It was the Gospel of Christ crucified that led to their being converted.

MM: Here is what Sister White wrote about it: “During His life on this earth He had sown the seed of truth and had watered it with His blood. The conversions that took place on the Day of Pentecost were the result of this sowing, the harvest of Christ's work, revealing the power of His teaching.” (AA 44)

TE: Sure. The Apostles taught what they learned of Christ. They presented Christ crucified, and through the Holy Spirit many souls were convicted and converted. But remember that these were largely Gentiles, who had no acquaintance with the "all things" you are talking about. These would have been explained to them after they were converted, and as I explained previously, these "all things" weren't even agreed to for some time.

MM: That’s not what Sister White said about it. She is very clear: “The conversions that took place on the Day of Pentecost were the result of this sowing, the harvest of Christ's work, revealing the power of His teaching.”

Right! This doesn't mean every one at Pentecost heard Christ personally speak. There were a great deal of Gentiles that were converted at Pentecost, who came from far away, and would never have heard Christ speak. They heard Peter's preaching, which was the result of the sowing of Christ, the harvest of Christ's work, revealing the power of His teaching.

Are you saying Jesus did not teach these particular people how to live in harmony with everything He commanded?

Have you not read Acts? That says what the people heard.

TE: This is what you were saying before. But as I pointed out before, Ellen White says that being born again is a condition to being saved. So your distinction here is faulty. You can't be saved without being born again. In other words, all who are saved have been born again.

MM: I disagree with your definition of rebirth.

She said it, not I.

TE: “Luther did not complete the process of converting to obeying everything Jesus commanded. Do you agree?” "Luther was converted." How does that not answer the question?

MM: Okay, so you are saying Luther was converted to obeying everything Jesus commanded. Do you really believe he was obeying everything Jesus commanded?

"obeying everything Jesus commanded" is your phraseology, not mine. I believe Luther was converted, according to how the term is used by everyone excluding you. MM, just ask if there's anyone on this forum who thinks that Luther was not converted.

TE: I would say that anyone who responds to all the light they have been given (without purposely avoiding any opportunities to avoid [obtain] light) is living in harmony with what Jesus commanded. Being in harmony with God encompasses this. How could it not? How can one be in harmony with God, and not be in harmony with His law, which is a transcript of His character?

MM: “How can one be in harmony with God, and not be in harmony with His law, which is a transcript of His character?” Exactly. That’s what I’ve been asking along. You say you experienced conversion before you understood the law of God.

That's not what I said.

You say Luther was converted before he observed the Sabbath.

I did say this.

How can people complete the process of converting to obeying everything Jesus commanded before they know what He commanded? Why would they consent to accept Jesus as their Saviour if they don’t know what He expects of them?

Because conversion has to do with knowing Christ, not with doing certain things. This is the same problem the Pharisees had when they asked Christ, "how can we do the works of God." His reply was, "this is the work of God, that you believe in Him who He has sent." Justification if by *faith*! Not by works, but by faith. We are not converted by doing "all the things that Jesus has commanded," but by faith in Christ. When one *believes*, the Holy Spirit creates a new life in the soul, and we are born again. After we are born again, we begin a process of learning more about God and His way of doing things, His principles (i.e. commandments). There are many Christians who are genuinely converted, who would rather die than commit a sin, yet they don't know some things that are in the 28 fundamental beliefs. They may not be ready for translation, but they are converted; they know Christ. They are born again, justified by faith, saved, and converted, all of which are synonyms.

MM, I showed you that Ellen White uses these terms synonymously. I gave several examples of this. I could give many more. But you can find this out for yourself. Just compare how she uses "saved" and any of the other of these terms, and you will see she uses them synonymously. I believe you have a correct understanding of what "saved" means, but all of the other terms, which are in reality synonymous to "saved," you have an incorrect idea regarding their meaning. This can be easily seen from Ellen White's writings, or Scripture.

For example, Jesus said the publican went away justified. You say not by faith, but it's obvious he was justified by faith. He asked for forgiveness, and was pardoned. This IS justification by faith. It's what it is. Pardon and justification by faith are one and the same. This can be seen from Romans 4, or the following:

Tom,

No need to reply, but please do the courtesy of reading it. It is post #85959 on Page 7:

http://www.maritime-sda-online.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=86517&page=0&fpart=7

Thanks for your understanding.

I did read it. I thought about answering it, but it was difficult because the flow of the conversation had changed, since several days and quite a few posts had passed.

I'll be happy to respond to anything you post now.

Tom Ewall wrote:

"Jesus Christ is the truth who sets us free from our sinful habits. The Holy Spirit presents Christ to the prospective believer. When Christ is accepted, the power over sin is broken."

I agree with this statement. It summarizes what I have been sharing on this thread. It answers the title of this thread.